Talk:Zhoosh
I will finish this page tomorrow, I have to attend a family meeting. 13:04, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :Okay. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:09, May 7, 2011 (UTC) ::Family visit cancelled! 13:38, May 7, 2011 (UTC) Okay lol Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:55, May 7, 2011 (UTC) Sickening This is sickening... Okay, these people excist, and have all rights normal Lovians have. Yet these perversions should not be presented as "normal" in our schools. Surely this would be a very bad example to our youth. Fakking Held 17:09, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :So I assume you believe that we should not consider people of non-Caucasian races normal in schools as well? —TimeMaster (talk • ) 17:18, May 7, 2011 (UTC) ::All children should be educated. Whether or not they should all go to the same schools is another question, but since Lovia is a very small nation as it is I doubt racial segregation would work. After all, the majority of people are already Caucasian. I doubt we could even find enough non-white kids to start a black school to begin with. Also, I said we should not teach our children "it's okay to be gay & have unprotected anal sex & get aids"... which we would promote by allowing this sickening behaviour. It is not normal and has never been considered normal. Now believe me; that was for a very good reason. Simply because it isn't. Fakking Held 17:26, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :::I don't see what's wrong with being homosexual, the only universal difference is sexuality. Why shouldn't we be teaching our kids to accept gay people? —TimeMaster (talk • ) 17:29, May 7, 2011 (UTC) Somone ban Held, he's probaly a drabo sockie, otherwise he's just plan racist. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:31, May 7, 2011 (UTC) ::Accept them is one thing. I am not saying we should teach them to yell at them or kick them to the curb, am I? But to teach them it is healthy and normal and a good thing? No. Because it is not healthy, not normal and NOT a good thing. And I'm not saying I dislike them all. For example I'd rather see the Sir Ian Mckellan type then the Chris Colfer type. Not the drama-queen, effeminate, weakling, but rather the reasonable, manly, confident type. And not: overconfident, constantly "expressing their sexuality" by publically "expressing their love for one another" and pushing their gayness in your face, flaunting it. I hate that, it should not be promoted. I'd say: be who you are, but sometimes just keep it down a notch. If my neigbor is gay, I'm fine with it. But how hard is it to keep it to himself? To keep their perversion within the bedroom? Fakking Held 17:37, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :::Cut it, Fakking Guy. You're bordering to insulting behavior here. 17:40, May 7, 2011 (UTC) ::If anyone of you is a queer themselves I am deeply sorry; I do not intend to insult you guys. Or do I? No, no, I'm quite sure I do not. Still: you are the ones taking things personal, not I. I can't recall ever personally insulting any of you guys. Fakking Held 17:43, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :::I live to triumph your attitude, Fakking. Wanna test my patience? 17:47, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :::Bring it on, bitch! Fakking Held 17:48, May 7, 2011 (UTC) ::No but i know homosexuals so it is sorta personal. Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:51, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :::As I see it asocial behavior is an insult to society as a whole. Fakking, you just insulted the entire civilized world. Now with 'bring it on', did you mean I should take measures against you? 17:58, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :::With the civilised world, what do you mean? Which people are civilised, and which aren't? Which nations are, and which are not? Fakking Held 18:00, May 7, 2011 (UTC) ::::Nazi-germany isn't, if that is what you're asking for. I might doubt on fascist Italy. 18:04, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :::Well, Nazi Germany failed, that's obvious. And Hitler harmed nationalism more then he helped it. But to view him and his views as the ultimate evil is very much outdated. Genocide, eugenics, ethnic tension... he was not the first and not the last. Yet the Zionist Controlled Media still portrays him as Satan re-incarnated... Despite the knowledge other dictators killed more people. Fakking Held 18:07, May 7, 2011 (UTC) ::::But never for such perverse reasons. Nazism is the sick idea that one man is all, and the rest is worms at best - dead at worst. 18:10, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :Can we get back to productive work, or delete this degrating convo. Marcus/Michael Villanova 18:15, May 7, 2011 (UTC) : Straight, Gay, Bi, all sexuality needs to be a private thing between two people, its not need to be know to the hole world. I'm okay with gay people, but I'm not going to become friends with a male who screams, laughs, talks like a girl, its just too much for me. I know not all gay people sound like this, but all I see is this stereotype in my city/school. Give them unions by the state, but I don't want to see a straight/lesbian/gay couple making out with each other on a column on the Capital. Nathaniel Scribner 20:41, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :I don't care what people make out of love, it is a matter of emotion. Someone can tell you how you should feel but the only thing that matters is how you do feel. Also yuri how comes a leftloving progressive as you is against transsexual operations? You said so here http://nation.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Communist_Party_of_Lovia_(neo-marxist)#Gay_Commies Aged youngman 20:47, May 7, 2011 (UTC) ::Yeah it's weird. But I'm a rare few people who care more about social issues instead of economic issues. More like a libertarian in a way, as a crazy texan Ron Paul once said "I don't need the government telling me what to do or who to do." Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:16, May 7, 2011 (UTC) :::@Marcus: perhaps in the US that is weird, but in Europe most people believe economic and social issues are closely related. A better economy can support larger societal programs. @Youngman: I tried to explain it on the CPL.nm talk page. Maybe I should make an extra page on the controversy? 09:03, May 8, 2011 (UTC) Transsexual issue I explained our difference on the transsexual issue in a page on the Zhoosh gender controversy. I argued my side a lot but clearly stated Marcus' stance is the one accepted by Zhoosh. If any of you should be really interested: I tried to incorporate a mathematical description of my arguments too and made it into the first real theory coming from Lovian soil. Only basic understanding of algebra is needed. 09:55, May 8, 2011 (UTC) :Then I fail Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:06, May 8, 2011 (UTC) ::I kept it simple really. Though most users will get bored by the idea of maths alone. 12:15, May 8, 2011 (UTC) :::...*sleeping snoring* Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:16, May 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::I always thought of maths as fun, you can do amazing things if you master it. The latter was often a problem though. I envy people who actually handle the math-magic. 12:27, May 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::First female member to sign up. 16:23, June 6, 2011 (UTC) Controversy (2) I clicked the link and read the article to just where it turns into maths. Yuri, I find your view wereldvreemd but do share your idea on the queer gender thing. Maybe you can add me as a partial supporter? 16:30, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :Very "wereldvreemd" indeed. How about a list of opponents? The Master's Voice 17:35, June 6, 2011 (UTC) ::The key to the whole debate was between people who think 'deviating sexuality is completely okay and should not be limited'. The whole point is that of pragmatists versus marxists, though outsider comments are always welcome. If you join Zhoosh then you can oppose. 14:53, June 7, 2011 (UTC) My view on the subject I'm okay with homosexuality in itself, as reasonable people ought to have a certain ammount of tolerance. Yet gender roles are the cement that is keeping our society together. The day effeminacy and weakness become the norm rather then the exception as it currently is will be a horrible day in the history of the world. A man is supposed to act manly, a woman feminine. That's the way it has always been and always should remain. Gender roles are there for a reason. Gay men simply lack the proper ammount of testosterone therefore nature made them gay so they will not reproduce. Queer people are perhaps natures way of birth control, who knows. This is just my view on the whole issue. Call me old-fashioned if you want, but this is the way I see it. The Master's Voice 17:32, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :Gender roles are the cement that is keeping our society together, I agree but it is an oppressing cement that can be replaced by a better one. Just my marxist opinion. :Gay men simply lack the proper ammount of testosterone, statistics show no relation between fagot-like behavior, testosterone production or ones sexual orientation. There are straight people acting fagot-like as well as there are very 'manly' homosexuals. I might go a little far designing a mathematical model but you ought to check the numbers before jumping to conclusion. 14:51, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ::You know, the exception confirms the rule. Most gays I know are indeed weak and effeminate, not at all manly. Often they are friendly and likeable people, I'll give you that. Still, they're not the type of people I'd like my son to look upon as role models. Girly behaviour in men is to be discouraged, not encouraged. It is a sign of unmanliness and weakness. It has been considered as such as long as we can remember and rightfully so. The day our nations are being led by unmanly, feminine men is a dark day in our history. The Master's Voice 15:28, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :::You're stereotyping: there is NO LINK between behavior (manly, fagot, etc.) and sexual orientation (straight, gay). NO LINK. The day you will be able to provide firm evidence of that relation mathematics is proven wrong. You are simply stereotyping and basing your judgement on the gay community as portrayed by the media, though I admit many gays adopt that image to fit in. I dare to say that there are equally many gays manly as fagot. 16:04, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ::::Are you saying the fact that all gays I've met so far have been femine is a coincidence? Maybe you're right, although my common sense makes me doubt it. Of course I am only refering to the openly gay individuals - of the many people I meet some may be gay and not tell. I guess if the image of gays in the media is negative, the media is to blame for the behaviour of many of these people. I cannot see I particuraly much like the media anyway. It does more damage then it helps these people, I suppose. Given that you're correct, of course. The Master's Voice 16:18, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :::::(1) feminine gays have it easier to come out, (2) you are misled by the representation in the media, (3) all gays are misled by the media too, they think that gay people are ought to behave like that. The media (help to) construct a third queer gender next to male and female. I take a great interest in the topic since it shows the power of the media in altering perception about statistical facts. Consider violent crime: it drops yet media attention grows so people feel less safe. 16:22, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ::::::With this negative portrayal of gays in the media, the wisest thing for them to do would probably be to just stay in that closet of theirs. The media is controlled by certain people, though, who have in interest in portraying people a certain way, for some reason. What will they win with it? Well, for instance, they weaken society by forcing certain ideals upon the people which the people themselves do not share. They brainwash us from an early age. The Master's Voice 16:30, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :I can only speak for Belgium here but we have two kind of media: the ones that go stereotyping (commercial stations) and the one that apply positive discrimination (the public ones). Both are wrong. Media is indeed priming our minds to think gays are fagot hairdressers or interior designers, though this is probably not on purpose. The 'queer gender' of the fagot-acting gay is a way for people to deal with what they do not know. "He's no man but he is no female either, so we will put him in this new box" - yet we're still thinking in boxes, right? Wrong that is! 16:34, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ::There is one possiblity you are ignoring. The reason the media is portraying gay men as effeminate and girly could simply be that that is the type of gays that is most prominent in the world. What if in fact most openly gay individuals do fit the way they are portrayed in the media? Most openly gay individuals nowadays can be spotted from a mile away; as soon as they enter a room or open their mouth their sexuality becomes apparant. It could either be that the media forces the normal ones to stay in the closet, or that simply most gay people do fit the stereotype. Which is the easiest explanation. The Master's Voice 16:42, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :::I feel bad for saying this, but I'd never befreind a guy with a girly voice, it really wants me to leave the room. I'm fine with gay people, just don't talk me to. Unless you are freindly and talk normal, I'll be happy to go kickball outside with you. Nathaniel Scribner 19:30, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ::::I understand what you mean. Just last week I had my hair cut by a male hairdresser; beach-blonde hair, black moustache, high voice, chihuahua and all. A very friendly guy, no doubt, but not the sorta person I'd typically hang out with or would want my son to grow up like. The Master's Voice 19:36, June 7, 2011 (UTC) I love the office! All the shows on NBC thrusday night are awesome. I'm using Mr.Blaca's quotes for zhoosh t-shirts to make sure intolerence is not kept. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:07, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :@Voice: About your easiest explanation - it is a known effect that people tend to base their assumptions on the availability of cases, thus most people think gays are girly because the media offers them a lot of cases (availability heuristic). The media seldom represent the statistical facts, the easiest explanation isn't always true is it? 05:44, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::Why should I not accept the easiest explanation when it only confirms that which I see both in real life and on television? That's the lazy man's way to deal with this stuff... not that I am not willing to look beyond this, however. I cannot say I am a big fan of the media, either. Would a different approach in the media be the end of effeminate boys and girly men? I somehow doubt it... The Master's Voice 07:48, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::As I already admitted media only contribute to the effect, they strengthen it. Another approach can not make the phenomenon disappear completely, but certainly will milder it. PS: the laziest way of explaining is looking at things as the result of a divine providence incomprehensible to mankind. Maybe girly man are created by God so that good Christians might ask themselves why they are around? 08:48, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::The phenomenon would dissapear if these people would be ridiculed in the media even more and they would be forced by society to quite the act and man up. We are currently seeing this: in schools, the girly boys are bullied, the sissies who cry easily, the weaklings, whether they be sexually abnormal or not. Later in life the gay ones will become the sort of "flaming homosexual" most people hate (whether they admit it or not) and the heterosexual ones will be unhappy because their behaviour leads them to be viewed as gay, even when they are not. It doesn't help people to act this way, and they have the power to stop acting this way, so by all means, let them. The Master's Voice 09:00, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::Partially agreed. I say let us all act like we want to and let the people who bully anyone feel the wrath of society. Guess that is my communist utopy, right? 09:07, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::::Why would these bullies have to feel the wrath of society if they are the voice of the majority of the same society? You enter any school class and ask the kids what they think of sissies and weaklings and they will be overwhelmingly negative - especially the boys, as the girls like to have a "gay best friend" to go shopping with. The Master's Voice 09:11, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :I always befriended girls easier then males, probably due to the fact that I am situated outside the classical genders. I don't care how I'm supposed to behave. Bullying is asocial, we must strive for the destruction of inequalities and free mankind of his own creations like gender. As a marxist I deem bullying (or any kind of asocial violence) as a barrier in our movement towards freedom, equality and prosperity. The majority can be wrong and I will not ever let a chance at society-bashing pass by. 09:24, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::Off-topic: Do you consider yourself to be a homosexual or anywhere on the LGBT-spectrum? Your description of your behaviour and your passion when it comes to defending the rights of gays leads me to suspect. No offense meant, just out of curiousity. The Master's Voice 09:42, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::Some people thought (or is it worried?) I was since in the basisschool all my friends were girls and I really hated the male stereotype. I'm not though, I am sexually attracted only to females. My passionate defense is a result of my worldview, though admittedly cause at least partially due to the fact I never 'fitted in' with regular boys/man. 09:53, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::So because you yourself did not feel you "fit in" you now play some sort of "Robin Hood" for gay people? How interesting. I am the male stereotype, you see. The very thing you hate, I and my fellow conservatives represent. I think that, too, is a fundamental difference. Mostly outsiders will feel for the gay people and protect their rights whereas those deemed normal by society most often will not. The Master's Voice 09:59, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::It is not so that my lack of personal compliance to the ideal image causes me to defend other deviations, it just helped me discovering theories on society, culture, social psychology, etc. It created an interest in social dynamics and eventually marxist theory. It was more of a facilitator than an actual cause. PS: I don't hate you, I want to save your soul. 10:06, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::::Well, my soul is not in need of saving, as I do not belief there is a hell for it to burn in. The Master's Voice 10:09, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::::We live in hell - a world were there is war, hunger, pain, corruption, poverty... If you don't need saving it is because you're on the happy side (for now). 10:13, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::::::World is indeed a living hell... for some people, that is. Most of us out here in the First World choose not to see it. It's easier to cope with that way. The more you think about what's wrong in the world, even in our own countries, the more depressed you'll get. The Master's Voice 10:20, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :People look away from war and poverty in the Third World but when they see all those immigrants coming they surely must ask if there isn't a better solution. Believe me, negating the problems elsewhere will (and already does) backfire. 10:32, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::::::As for those immigrants, we want them away, most of us. Not only do they often cost us more money then they bring in, they are also a constant reminder of misery in their part of the world. Therefore we shun them and, if they are criminal, kick them out. And rightfully so. But you are right, it is far from a permanent solution. The Master's Voice 10:45, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::@Yuri - I, too, always met the ladies easier to and it always leads to somthing else! :::@MV - Really can you stoop that low? :::Marcus/Michael Villanova 10:52, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::In what way do I "stoop that low"? Care to elaborate? The Master's Voice 11:01, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::@Marcus: it can be a real downside too. I've lost some good friends due to misunderstandings. @TMV: I don't get the stoop low either. I hate immigration too because it shouldn't be necessary. But that is an entirely different debate. 14:42, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::@Marcus & Yuri: there ain't nothing gay about being a ladies man! It's not comparable with being a lady-like man. The Master's Voice 14:45, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::You want to know how people react on a guy with a female friend? They must be a couple and if that is not the case, one of them is gay. When I was young I had a very close friendship with a girl, we were 'best friends' (like we all had one). When at the end of the school year we could make a list of who we'd like to be in class with next year we were on top of each other's lists (sound familiar?). Yet our teacher decided it was 'not normal' for us to have such a close relationship and that we should 'make new friends'. I still hate the man for that, who was he to decide which friends are good or normal to me? 14:53, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::::Well I don't think there is anything wrong with a close friendship between children or people of any age or sex. Being friendly with girls at an age when it is not yet considered "cool" because "girls are stupid" is most likely a sign of maturity, I guess. Growing up I had some female friends to yet my best friends where male. It's hard to be friends with someone you are or could be physically attracted to. The Master's Voice 14:59, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::::True, but I was really devastated when she bought it. Her new friends deemed it 'not cool' and thus grudgy me was born. Back then I simply didn't understand. Now I know it made me stronger, it triggered me to became what I am today. I still hold my grudge though and I long for a world that doesn't destroy the beauty of innocence with stupid prejudices and stereotypic gender roles. Seems I'm not motivated by reason alone. 15:03, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::::Nope, definetely not purely reason! I sense a strong level of personal attachment here, but I guess it's only logical in this case. When I was young I did not have much female friends, as they weren't into climbing threes, fighting, sports and other macho-stuff. I had one or two, though, since we shared a love for writing. One of them was also my first girlfriend, lol. Still, I think it perfectly healthy for children to befriend eachother regardless of gender. That is why an all-girl school or an all-boy school isn't a healthy practice either. Besides that, I believe it only encourages homosexuality. Ever heard of the expression de kat op 't spek binden? That may also be why some fathers may not like their daughters to have close male friends. The Master's Voice 15:08, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::::The way I see it adults can have friends of the other sex too, they only make it problematic. I agree it is more difficult as I experienced trouble myself here too. Yet the real problem is a lot of people protested against my innocent friendship at the time. Our parents, the teachers, etc. univocally said I would understand later on and see it as a chance. It is pretty hard to get such an answer from the world when you are a child. 15:15, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::::::Why do you think women so often have gay male friends or men have unattractive female friends? Because there would be no mutual attraction (or one-way attraction, for that matter). Also helps to keep jealous spouses and significant others at bay. If my wife where to have a gay male friend, he would not be any competition an thus viewed as harmless. If the male friend where straight, or even the slighest bit bisexual, he would form a threat. The most natural reaction would be to dislike such an individual, or distrust him, out of jealousy. Why we have to put children through all this nonsense is beyond me, though. The Master's Voice 15:19, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::@MV- there is nothing wrong with being a ladies man but just make sure your not a man slut. Which i also think is wrong, when a Man has uncontrolable sex it's "Nice Job!" when a women does it she's told she's a "whore" both are in the wrong. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:45, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::It's these "male sluts" that causes AIDS, not women. Certainly they are not to be applauded. The Master's Voice 19:52, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :So now the women have AIDS? Who said this man was gay? Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:55, June 8, 2011 (UTC)